I once listened to a podcast with a Harvard MD who studied "spontaneous recovery." Of course, he proposed it was not really spontaneous, it was just that we didn't yet understand the recovery in a scientific way. One thread he saw commonly across the study was that the people who experienced the phenomenon had become more balanced in masculine and feminine stereotyped qualities...I think about this so often in the way that women need to take up more agentic, masculine stereotyped qualities and men need more feminine or communal stereotyped qualities. Basically, women need to stand up, speak up and care for themselves and men need to feel and actually be more deeply connected to their emotions and to others....
Have you heard of stereotype threat? It is is so fascinating (and powerful) and shows another way in which stereotypes can be so limiting.....
That's a fascinating insight about the 'spontaneous recovery,' I definitely need to read more about it. Yes, I'm familiar with the stereotype threat! One study even found that when a woman is reminded of her female identity before taking a math test, she is more likely to perform worse than if she hadn’t been reminded...
Yes! I especially see it with my son. I feel like we are getting so much better with girls embracing masculine qualities but still have a way to go with letting boys embrace feminine. But this makes sense given we have valued the masculine over the feminine!
Yep, exactly! Ruth Whippman’s Boymom book is a great exploration of the challenges of raising boys. I’m grateful for the progress on this front but there is soooo much more needed. Boys and girls and anyone of any gender gets to be fully human!
"one universal 'good human' script" - this is what we need. Not all completely conforming of course, but a completely ungendered pick list of positive healthy human behaviours and attitudes.
How much of these social expectations are as a result of the world wars? Men carrying on fighting, even when injured, was probably necessary. Women back home grinning and bearing it, was probably necessary. My dad fought in World War II, my son is now in his early 20s. That generational cultural conditioning, has to be a big part of this. It is not surprising that we are taking time to catch up with a changing world. We probably will, just in time for the next WW. Ukraine is proving that warfare is still much the same as 80 years ago.
One thing I've noticed during my research is that gender norms, especially for men, became much stricter in the later Victorian era, around the same time the British Empire was at its peak. I don't think that's a coincidence.
I think it’s capitalism. Capitalism tells us that we are worth nothing if we aren’t earning money for somebody. So it’s not surprising that people think their value comes from pushing through and following orders. How sad.
We are seeing massive changes in some corners about gender roles. And we all know change is hard--both for us as individuals and in the culture.
I think the changing expectations and roles, especially in younger generations, is , in part, contributing to the backlash we're seeing among men. No one has given them a new script and even if they could, they would ignore it. They want things to go back to the way they were.
But, as a certain presidential candidate says, "We're not going back!" The finesse will be in how we support those who sense they are losing power, money and control, to see this dynamic is healthy and not a zero-sum game. We can all share in cooperating to evolve to a less-rigidly gendered world - as with the example in Scandanavian cultures.
Thank you for reading, Robin! I hope men who are feeling left behind or frustrated with the push for change and less rigidity in gender norms will eventually come to see that they benefit from it, too. I certainly try to emphasise its benefits and highlight the common ground between men and women whenever possible.
I disagree, why do they need a script? Women have been able to figure out how to act like human beings despite the script that was given to us telling us we are supposed to just be servants and incubators.
They are having an extinction burst because they refuse any kind of insight or evolution.
Women have been able to go to work and have their own bank accounts for like 50 years now. I’m sorry that for 50 years men haven’t been able to figure out how to be more than a Wallet, maybe they should work on that. Most of them are doing an awful job at being a wallet, so they really should work on that
Before 1969, American Wives could not get rid of their husbands. For any reason at all. Rape. Abuse; Mental and physical. Women, all women, not just wives were blocked from having a personal bank account. Goddess forbid she actually wanted a credit card. Which was finally law (Equal Credit Opportunity Act, ECOA) in 1974. I have often wondered if women were slipped in with the others given the ability to obtain financial freedom.
Many of the reasons women tried to escape a bad marriage were poo-poohed. So yes, many wives took to alcohol and Rx. Out of desperation. To escape a life of hell, at the hands of her so very masculine husbands. If left with no other choice, a significant number escaped by suicide.
But once given the ability to dump the trash without him committing murders on main street and raping the Prom Queen in public many things changed. Addiction reduced, and women suicides dropped by ~20%
Also weren’t barbiturates mother’s little helper? Not benzos? I guess it doesn’t matter that much except to say that benzos would have worked a lot better. There are barbiturates in my migraine medication and I don’t feel a thing from them so I feel bad for women if that’s what they had to rely on.
I think there's a tendency to treat all male behavior as a result of fear of breaking masculine gender norms, when sometimes men just have a different of perspective on things. The first study you cite, "Associations Between Masculine Norms and Health-Care Utilization in Highly Religious, Heterosexual Men" is such a clear example of this.
It concludes that "Masculine norms emerged as the overarching theme ... at every level this appeared as a dominant organizing orientation to health-care utilization", but if you actually read the quotes from the men they interviewed, almost none of it has anything to do with gender norms. While they sometimes used phrases like "men don't do that", in context these appear as descriptive, not prescriptive. They're just observations about male behavior.
Their decisions about avoiding healthcare are partly financial, and partly that they see doctors as incompetent, justified by their past experiences. Their perspective is basically "it'll cost a lot of money and they'll just tell me what I already know and give me painkillers, so what's the point", which is perfectly valid (and in my humble opinion true), but the authors shoehorn it into being about gender norms.
I think your own statement, "While masculinity screams, ‘it’s just a flesh wound’, femininity whispers, ‘I’m fine, don’t worry about me’", pretty much says it all. Men and women avoid healthcare in exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons, they just express it in masculine or feminine terms.
The men I have seen avoid healthcare have literally told me that they believe that if a doctor doesn’t tell them what’s wrong with them nothing is ever wrong with them. It’s the weirdest magical thinking I’ve ever seen. Clearly something is wrong with them, but somehow a doctor putting a name on it is what will actually make them sick not the problem they need to see the doctor for.
“It’s also no secret that women account for nearly 80% of all cases of autoimmune disease, which is still poorly understood, not least because it’s precisely women who are more likely to suffer from it. (And that’s on gender bias in medical studies.) Could it be that internalising cultural expectations of feminine ‘niceness’ play a role in it, too? Perhaps.”
I suspect it’s more due to our inability to rest when we need to that causes women to account for more of the chronic illnesses. I don’t have kids and I was single when I got mono, I wasn’t allowed to rest because my doctor didn’t realize I had mono, she ran a CBC and when nothing looked off she decided I had mental illness instead. I was having debilitating physical symptoms but I kept trying to go back to work because my doctor kept telling me I should be fine to go to work, then I would crash hard and have to take time off, only need to be put back to work.
I was only allowed to take time off after I went to see the psychiatrist for this mental illness I was causing myself, and he knew I had mono not mental illness, so he ordered a lab test and he gave me the time off to rest.
Unfortunately it was too late and I had already developed MECFS. But that experience gave me so much empathy for women who have children, even if their doctor gives them a note they can’t rest because nobody helps them
As with everything, this doesn’t quite seem like the whole picture.
Sapolsky has plenty of research into this kind of stuff from the evolutionary biology standpoint
I feel quite at my best when I am doing “stereotypical man things” like lifting weights and fighting for sport. Maybe that’s because of biological hardwiring and need for testosterone secretion.
Have you considered that it makes sense that you would enjoy doing your hobbies? Do you think that women enjoy doing the housekeeping? We don’t. I also enjoy the gym. Weird, huh!
The fundamental conditions of life are nightmare soup. Nothing is “supposed” to be. Every angle seems ridiculous when relativism effortlessly dulls every edge. Unless, or until, it’s crystal clear where to land whether science can easily inform is/ought with an undeniably reliable metric of confidence per concern.
I once listened to a podcast with a Harvard MD who studied "spontaneous recovery." Of course, he proposed it was not really spontaneous, it was just that we didn't yet understand the recovery in a scientific way. One thread he saw commonly across the study was that the people who experienced the phenomenon had become more balanced in masculine and feminine stereotyped qualities...I think about this so often in the way that women need to take up more agentic, masculine stereotyped qualities and men need more feminine or communal stereotyped qualities. Basically, women need to stand up, speak up and care for themselves and men need to feel and actually be more deeply connected to their emotions and to others....
Have you heard of stereotype threat? It is is so fascinating (and powerful) and shows another way in which stereotypes can be so limiting.....
Thank you for sharing this thoughtful piece!
That's a fascinating insight about the 'spontaneous recovery,' I definitely need to read more about it. Yes, I'm familiar with the stereotype threat! One study even found that when a woman is reminded of her female identity before taking a math test, she is more likely to perform worse than if she hadn’t been reminded...
Yes - stereotype threat is so powerful. You don't have to believe the stereotypes, you just have to be concerned that other people might...
This was the podcast though I should probably also read the book! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-mystery-of-spontaneous-healing-jeffrey-rediger-m-d-m-div/id1585015034?i=1000569867816
This validates my constant attempts to parent my kiddos in counter-cultural ways!
Yes! I especially see it with my son. I feel like we are getting so much better with girls embracing masculine qualities but still have a way to go with letting boys embrace feminine. But this makes sense given we have valued the masculine over the feminine!
Yep, exactly! Ruth Whippman’s Boymom book is a great exploration of the challenges of raising boys. I’m grateful for the progress on this front but there is soooo much more needed. Boys and girls and anyone of any gender gets to be fully human!
Exactly
Well-said
"one universal 'good human' script" - this is what we need. Not all completely conforming of course, but a completely ungendered pick list of positive healthy human behaviours and attitudes.
Glad you liked the idea!
How much of these social expectations are as a result of the world wars? Men carrying on fighting, even when injured, was probably necessary. Women back home grinning and bearing it, was probably necessary. My dad fought in World War II, my son is now in his early 20s. That generational cultural conditioning, has to be a big part of this. It is not surprising that we are taking time to catch up with a changing world. We probably will, just in time for the next WW. Ukraine is proving that warfare is still much the same as 80 years ago.
One thing I've noticed during my research is that gender norms, especially for men, became much stricter in the later Victorian era, around the same time the British Empire was at its peak. I don't think that's a coincidence.
That's a really interesting angle.
I think it’s capitalism. Capitalism tells us that we are worth nothing if we aren’t earning money for somebody. So it’s not surprising that people think their value comes from pushing through and following orders. How sad.
One again - brilliant writing
Thank you so much, I appreciate the support!
Great article. Thanks for presenting this ageless issue.
Thank you!
We are seeing massive changes in some corners about gender roles. And we all know change is hard--both for us as individuals and in the culture.
I think the changing expectations and roles, especially in younger generations, is , in part, contributing to the backlash we're seeing among men. No one has given them a new script and even if they could, they would ignore it. They want things to go back to the way they were.
But, as a certain presidential candidate says, "We're not going back!" The finesse will be in how we support those who sense they are losing power, money and control, to see this dynamic is healthy and not a zero-sum game. We can all share in cooperating to evolve to a less-rigidly gendered world - as with the example in Scandanavian cultures.
Thanks, Katie, for your analysis.
Thank you for reading, Robin! I hope men who are feeling left behind or frustrated with the push for change and less rigidity in gender norms will eventually come to see that they benefit from it, too. I certainly try to emphasise its benefits and highlight the common ground between men and women whenever possible.
I disagree, why do they need a script? Women have been able to figure out how to act like human beings despite the script that was given to us telling us we are supposed to just be servants and incubators.
They are having an extinction burst because they refuse any kind of insight or evolution.
Women have been able to go to work and have their own bank accounts for like 50 years now. I’m sorry that for 50 years men haven’t been able to figure out how to be more than a Wallet, maybe they should work on that. Most of them are doing an awful job at being a wallet, so they really should work on that
I recommend anyone interested in this to check out Carol Gilligan, who is an absolutely amazing thinker and scholar on gender roles: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-gender-revolution/202309/40-years-of-in-a-different-voice
Brilliant.
Thanks!
Well-said as usual, Katie. Gender roles really are toxic prisons for both women and men.
Before 1969, American Wives could not get rid of their husbands. For any reason at all. Rape. Abuse; Mental and physical. Women, all women, not just wives were blocked from having a personal bank account. Goddess forbid she actually wanted a credit card. Which was finally law (Equal Credit Opportunity Act, ECOA) in 1974. I have often wondered if women were slipped in with the others given the ability to obtain financial freedom.
Many of the reasons women tried to escape a bad marriage were poo-poohed. So yes, many wives took to alcohol and Rx. Out of desperation. To escape a life of hell, at the hands of her so very masculine husbands. If left with no other choice, a significant number escaped by suicide.
But once given the ability to dump the trash without him committing murders on main street and raping the Prom Queen in public many things changed. Addiction reduced, and women suicides dropped by ~20%
Who would of thought?
Who the fuck indeed.
Also weren’t barbiturates mother’s little helper? Not benzos? I guess it doesn’t matter that much except to say that benzos would have worked a lot better. There are barbiturates in my migraine medication and I don’t feel a thing from them so I feel bad for women if that’s what they had to rely on.
I think there's a tendency to treat all male behavior as a result of fear of breaking masculine gender norms, when sometimes men just have a different of perspective on things. The first study you cite, "Associations Between Masculine Norms and Health-Care Utilization in Highly Religious, Heterosexual Men" is such a clear example of this.
It concludes that "Masculine norms emerged as the overarching theme ... at every level this appeared as a dominant organizing orientation to health-care utilization", but if you actually read the quotes from the men they interviewed, almost none of it has anything to do with gender norms. While they sometimes used phrases like "men don't do that", in context these appear as descriptive, not prescriptive. They're just observations about male behavior.
Their decisions about avoiding healthcare are partly financial, and partly that they see doctors as incompetent, justified by their past experiences. Their perspective is basically "it'll cost a lot of money and they'll just tell me what I already know and give me painkillers, so what's the point", which is perfectly valid (and in my humble opinion true), but the authors shoehorn it into being about gender norms.
I think your own statement, "While masculinity screams, ‘it’s just a flesh wound’, femininity whispers, ‘I’m fine, don’t worry about me’", pretty much says it all. Men and women avoid healthcare in exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons, they just express it in masculine or feminine terms.
The men I have seen avoid healthcare have literally told me that they believe that if a doctor doesn’t tell them what’s wrong with them nothing is ever wrong with them. It’s the weirdest magical thinking I’ve ever seen. Clearly something is wrong with them, but somehow a doctor putting a name on it is what will actually make them sick not the problem they need to see the doctor for.
And I don’t see a way through that delusion.
Do no harm.
“It’s also no secret that women account for nearly 80% of all cases of autoimmune disease, which is still poorly understood, not least because it’s precisely women who are more likely to suffer from it. (And that’s on gender bias in medical studies.) Could it be that internalising cultural expectations of feminine ‘niceness’ play a role in it, too? Perhaps.”
I suspect it’s more due to our inability to rest when we need to that causes women to account for more of the chronic illnesses. I don’t have kids and I was single when I got mono, I wasn’t allowed to rest because my doctor didn’t realize I had mono, she ran a CBC and when nothing looked off she decided I had mental illness instead. I was having debilitating physical symptoms but I kept trying to go back to work because my doctor kept telling me I should be fine to go to work, then I would crash hard and have to take time off, only need to be put back to work.
I was only allowed to take time off after I went to see the psychiatrist for this mental illness I was causing myself, and he knew I had mono not mental illness, so he ordered a lab test and he gave me the time off to rest.
Unfortunately it was too late and I had already developed MECFS. But that experience gave me so much empathy for women who have children, even if their doctor gives them a note they can’t rest because nobody helps them
This is the first article that I have read in the Noosphere. I found that it expresses my thoughts on how Women in America are treated.
As with everything, this doesn’t quite seem like the whole picture.
Sapolsky has plenty of research into this kind of stuff from the evolutionary biology standpoint
I feel quite at my best when I am doing “stereotypical man things” like lifting weights and fighting for sport. Maybe that’s because of biological hardwiring and need for testosterone secretion.
Maybe 🤷♂️
Have you considered that it makes sense that you would enjoy doing your hobbies? Do you think that women enjoy doing the housekeeping? We don’t. I also enjoy the gym. Weird, huh!
I enjoy doing cleaning and housekeeping as a man haha
So you’re correct — we each have individual preferences, as well as inherent biological propensities.
So, you might not ‘enjoy’ housekeeping, but it’s probably very natural to you.
The fundamental conditions of life are nightmare soup. Nothing is “supposed” to be. Every angle seems ridiculous when relativism effortlessly dulls every edge. Unless, or until, it’s crystal clear where to land whether science can easily inform is/ought with an undeniably reliable metric of confidence per concern.